How to Make Your Marketing Irresistible Using Behavioral Science

Watch the Episode on YouTube

How nice would it be to increase your audience engagement, response rates, and the ROI of your marketing initiatives? 

Pretty great, right?

Harnessing hardwired consumer behavior and instinctive responses is one of the best ways to do that, and it isn’t even that hard if you know what you’re doing.

That’s where Nancy Harhut comes in. Author of Using Behavioral Science in Marketing, getting people to take action is what Nancy is all about. Her specialty is blending best-of-breed creative with behavioral science to prompt response.

And she’s really good at it. 

She and her teams have won over 200 international and national awards for marketing effectiveness. 

Nancy’s also been named one of the 10 Most Fascinating People in B2B Marketing, a Social Top 50 Email Marketing Leader, and a Top 40 Digital Strategist A frequent speaker at marketing conferences, she’s shared her passion with audiences all over the world.

We invited her on the show to discuss things like:

• What inspired Nancy to write her book "Using Behavioral Science in Marketing"

• Tactics and principles people can use to capture their audience’s attention

• Common mistakes marketers make when trying to incorporate behavioral science into their strategies

• The most surprising or unexpected finding in Nancy’s research

• Nancy’s advice for aspiring marketers looking to integrate behavioral science into their strategies

Plus so much more. So be sure to tune in!

Like the show? We'd love it if you'd leave a 5-star review!

Resources Mentioned In The Episode

• The Brainy Business Podcast
• Brainfluence
• Habit Weekly Newsletter

Connect with Nancy Harhut

• Read Using Behavioral Science in Marketing
• Visit HBT Marketing

Favorite Quote About Success:

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take." - Wayne Gretzky

Being a solopreneur is awesome but it’s not easy. It's hard to get noticed. Most business advice is for bigger companies, and you're all alone...until now. LifeStarr's SoloSuite Starter gives you free education, community, and tools to build a thriving one-person business. 

So, if you are lacking direction, having a hard time generating leads, or are having trouble keeping up with everything you have to do, or even just lonely running a company of one, click here to check out SoloSuite Starter!

About Nancy Harhut

Nancy Harhut is Co-Founder and Chief Creative Officer at HBT Marketing, a consultancy which specializes in applying human behaviour techniques to marketing and whose clients include H&R Block, AARP and Transamerica. Based in Boston, Massachusetts, she previously held senior creative management positions with agencies within the IPG and Publicis networks, where she worked with clients including Dell, Bank of America and AT&T. A regular international conference keynoter, she has been recognized as an Online Marketing Institute Top 40 Digital Strategist and Ad Club Top 100 Creative Influencer.

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on Apple Podcasts Thanks!

Episode Transcript

Carly Ries: 00:00

How nice would it be to increase your audience engagement, response rates, and the ROI of your marketing initiatives? Pretty great. Right? Harnessing hardwired consumer behavior and instinctive responses is one of the best ways to do that, and it isn't even that hard if you know what you're doing. That's where Nancy Harhut comes in, author of Using Behavioral Science and Marketing.

Carly Ries: 00:21

Getting people to take action is what Nancy is all about. Her specialty is blending best of breed creative with behavioral science to prompt response, and she's really good at it. She and her teams have won over 200 international and national awards for marketing effectiveness. Nancy's also been named one of the 10 most fascinating people in b to b marketing, a social top 50 email marketing leader, and a top 40 digital strategist. She's also a frequent speaker at marketing conferences, and she shared her passion with audiences all over the world.

Carly Ries: 00:53

So kind of a big deal. We invited her on the show to discuss things like what inspired Nancy to write her book, tactics and principles people can use to capture their audience's attention, common mistakes marketers make when trying to incorporate behavioral science into their strategies, the most surprising or unexpected binding in Nancy's research, and Nancy's advice for aspiring marketers looking to integrate behavioral science into their strategies. We discussed this plus so much more, so be sure to tune in. You're listening to the aspiring solopreneur, the podcast for those just taking the bold step or even just thinking about taking that step into the world of solo entrepreneurship. My name is Carly Ries, and my co host Joe Rando and I are your guides to navigating this crazy, but awesome journey as a company of 1.

Carly Ries: 01:41

We take pride in being part of LifeStarr, a digital hub dedicated to all aspects of solopreneurship that has empowered and countless solopreneurs looking to build a business that resonates with their life's ambitions. We help people work to live, not live to work. And if you're looking for a get rich quick scheme, this is not the show for you. So if you're eager to gain who've who've paved the way before you, then stick around. We've got your back because flying solo in business doesn't mean you're alone.

Carly Ries: 02:17

Okay. So before we jump into this episode, I just have to share this new free offer we have called the SoloSuite Starter. Being a solopreneur is awesome, but it's not easy. It's hard to get noticed and most business advice is for bigger companies, and you're all alone until now. Lifestarr's SoloSuite gives you free education, community, and tools to build a thriving one person business.

Carly Ries: 02:39

So if you're lacking direction, having a hard time generating leads, having trouble keeping up with everything you have to do, or even if you're just lonely running a company of 1, be sure to check out SoloSuite Starter at LifeStarr.com and click on products and pricing at the top menu. It's the first one in the drop down. Again, it's totally free, so check it out at LifeStarr.com Click on products and pricing, and it's the first one in the menu. Hope to see you there.

Carly Ries: 03:07

Nancy, we were just saying offline that we are total groupies of yours, and I will say it out to the world now.

Joe Rando: 03:13

Absolutely.

Carly Ries: 03:14

Excited to have you on this show. Thank you so much for joining us.

Nancy Harhut: 03:17

Oh my god. You guys, thank you so much for having me. You're just too nice. You're absolutely too nice, and you're making my morning. So thank you very much.

Joe Rando: 03:24

Well, Carly's too nice. I'm not usually accused of that.

Carly Ries: 03:26

Yup you're the mean one. Nancy, it's funny because I so I used to work for an Inbound agency, and that's actually where Joe and I met. And one of the, higher ups at the agency had a psychology degree. And when she was getting the degree, people were like, what do you wanna do with that? And she said, marketing.

Carly Ries: 03:45

And they were like, that is so strange. you're in psychology. Why aren't you getting a marketing and advertising communication degree? And she was like, I just think this is the right way to go. Like, if you want a marketing degree, you have to high understand the psychology of your audience, psychology of who you're targeting.

Carly Ries: 04:02

And I was like, that is so smart. then a few years later, you come around and I mean, you were around before, but I was it's like, oh, she knows what she's talking about.

Joe Rando: 04:16

we were talking about psychology, but am I not mistaken? Your background is neuroscience?

Nancy Harhut: 04:21

So honestly, my background is journalist. you know, after I graduated and got my degree in that, and I knew I was never gonna be good in it. I scrambled going into my senior year, I scrambled and I took all kinds of other writing classes because I knew I'd be a good journalist, I wouldn't be a great journalist. But, it was a little bit later in my career, Joe, when I came upon, neuroscience and behavioral science and social science, I read a book by doctor Robert Cialdini called, Influence to Psychology of Persuasion, pardon me, which I highly recommend, and that sent me down the rabbit hole because I was, reading about, you know, basically, as Carly was saying, you know, psychology, how people make decisions. And if you're in marketing, it's all about getting people to make decisions. And so wouldn't it make sense for us as marketers to understand how people make decisions?

Nancy Harhut: 05:09

And so I kind of went down that rabbit hole, you know, Cialdini and Ariely and Roger Dooley and just started to soak up as much information as I possibly could, started to experiment with it, you know, in in marketing, in the realm of marketing, starting to basically apply what I learned in behavioral science to the marketing communications, saw that what I was applying work, and then it was, you know, the point of no return. That's what I just kind of double down on that. so it's very kind of you to refer to me as a neuroscientist, but I'm really more of a marketer who applies behavioral science and neuroscience.

Joe Rando: 05:42

Okay. So yeah. But that's what I'm saying is you're drawing off of more than just kind of general psychology, if I understand it.

Nancy Harhut: 05:49

Yes.

Joe Rando: 05:50

it's a broader base. Yeah. I just wanted to make sure that I was clear on that.

Carly Ries: 05:53

Yeah. Thank you for clarifying. I guess the point I was trying to get at is it's not just all about CTR, open rates. It's getting into the minds of the people that you're targeting. And, Nancy, you have written a wonderful book called Using Behavioral Science in Marketing, which is very fitting for this conversation.

Carly Ries: 06:11

And I wanna get into some of the principles of that in a second, but before we do, we have, solopreneurs across the board. Some are b to b, some are b to c. There are different approaches to those two areas. Correct? You don't necessarily approach b to b and b to c in a similar way. Right?

Nancy Harhut: 06:28

Yeah. So, it's a twofold answer. In marketing, there are definitely differences between b to b and and b to c. B to b sales cycle is longer, there are more, decision makers and influencers, the price tag is usually higher, you know, b to c, it's often a shorter, you know, purchase cycle, it's maybe one person deciding, there are more impulse purchases, so absolutely there are differences, but the the thing that brings them together is at the end of the day, it's a person that we're marketing to, whether it's a b to b sale or a b to c sale, and so there are certain things about people that are the same regardless whether they're, you know, at home or at work, and so understanding how people respond information, what catches their attention, how they make decisions, I think that's where the 2 start to come together. So you wanna take the best practices in b to b marketing and maybe overlay some behavioral science.

Nancy Harhut: 07:17

You wanna take the best practices in b to c marketing and then overlay some behavioral science, and that's gonna give you your strongest, you know, effort in the marketplace.

Carly Ries: 07:27

Okay. That makes sense. I just I just wanted to put that statement out before we dive in, and I'm actually halfway through your book right now. I love it.

Carly Ries: 07:35

I mean, Joe and I have heard you talk in the past, but for people that aren't as familiar, what are some of the tactics and principles people can use to capture their audience attention that you reference in the book?

Nancy Harhut: 07:47

Sure. So, the book is all about behavioral science and, for anyone who might not be familiar with the term or isn't quite sure because they've heard a few different definitions, what we're really talking about very simply is just how people behave and more specifically, how they make decisions.

Nancy Harhut: 08:01

So, how they decide to look at something, to consume content, to trust the source of the information, and and then to make a purchase. So, so behavioral science is all about, you know, decide you're all about discovering how people make decisions and, you know, why they do what they do. And then from the marketing perspective, we add in and how to get them to do more of what we want them to do. Right? So, Carly, as you say, one of the things we want them to do is pay attention because we get out the absolute best product, the best message, but if nobody consumes it, if nobody reads it, if no one sees it, if no one stops and engages with it, you know, we're kind of out of luck.

Nancy Harhut: 08:35

So there are, I think, there are many ways. I'd like to talk about 3 of them. There are 3 ways that I would bring up that would help people attract someone's attention. So one is the idea of surprise. What happens when people are surprised according to the University of Glasgow is their emotions are intensified by about 400%.

Nancy Harhut: 08:53

So why should we care about that? Well, when our emotions are intensified by 400%, 2 things happen. We focus more on the thing that surprised us and we're more likely to remember it. So if you think about it, if you can get a message out there that surprises people, all of a sudden they're gonna focus on it.

Nancy Harhut: 09:10

You send out your email or your direct mail piece or you you put you put your blog post out or your social media post, and if there's something about it that surprises people, it's gonna stop them, and they're gonna focus on it. Alright? Job number 1, we've gotten them to pay attention, and then job number 2, they're gonna remember it. They're more likely to remember it. So, anything that we can do to surprise people, it could be, a visual, an image that's unusual.

Nancy Harhut: 09:31

Instead of using the same thing everyone else is using, we put a different, image out there. I know Walmart did an Instagram post once and it was a heel and torso, but it had this furry animal head. And you see the furry animal head and you expect to see a furry animal body, but you don't. You see a human torso or you see the human torso and you expect a human head, but, you know, you don't. Or we can use language, say you're writing an email subject line, you know, I got one from Sears the other day and it said something like, it's been a lawn winter, l a w n?

Nancy Harhut: 10:02

And that surprised me. I'm like, oh, they made a mistake. And then, like, oh, wait. It's from the patio department. They're selling lawn furniture, you know, but it's just enough, you know, when you're you're looking at something, you want that little thing to surprise you because that's what's gonna stop you, and then you're gonna pay more attention and you're gonna remember the message.

Nancy Harhut: 10:19

So, surprise is a good way to get people to pay attention. There are also certain, what I call, eye magnet words. There's been a lot of research that shows that people don't read the way we write. When we write, we write one word followed by the next followed by the next, but that's not how people read. When people read, they skim and they scan and if something catches their attention, they go in and they read the rest of the information.

Nancy Harhut: 10:41

And there are certain words that actually are proven to attract people's attention. And, again, I call them my magnet words because they'll leap off the screen or off the the page and they'll attract your eye like a magnet. Some of them have to do with the idea of novelty. Right? New, now, introducing, announcing, finally, soon, discover.

Nancy Harhut: 10:58

Those are all great words because the, the human brain craves news and novelty because when we find something that we think is new, it releases dopamine, which is a feel good chemical among other things, and so we're constantly dosing for that next set of dopamine, we're constantly looking for that next new thing because when we think we found it, we get that rush of dopamine and it feels good. So, you know, new or any of the family of new words, great Imagnet word, that will attract attention. The word free will attract attention. Dan Ariely, who's a well known behavioral economist finds that, we so overvalue the word free, we get such a rush when we see something that's free that we have to have it. So if something were even a a couple of cents, we might not want it, but if it's free, we have to have it.

Nancy Harhut: 11:40

You know, you think about going to, maybe a trade show and you're walking up and down the exhibitor floor, you know, you're grabbing the pens and the mugs and the t shirts as if you don't own a single pen or mug or t shirt, you know, then it's time to pack to go home, and you're like, oh my god. I can't fit this all in my suitcase. What was I thinking? But at the time, it was like, oh my god. It's free.

Nancy Harhut: 11:58

I have to have it. So, you know, the new family of words, the word free, the word you is a great way to attract attention. People are more interested in themselves than in anybody else. So instead of, you know, an entrepreneur or a solopreneur talking about, you know, well, we do this or my company does this or, you know, Acme Widgets does this. Say, you might be interested, you could benefit from, you could find this valuable.

Nancy Harhut: 12:27

As we're skimming and scanning, we'll go to that word you, but we'll gloss over gloss over, I should say, I, we, our, my company, or the company name. So eye magnet words are great ways to attract attention. And then the third way is something that behavioral scientists call social proof. When people aren't certain of what to do, they look around, they follow the lead of others. So if you, get a message out there that lets people know that a lot of people, just like the person who's currently reading your message, are doing something, well, the person who's currently reading the message, right away, they're gonna pay attention and think, oh, what am I missing?

Nancy Harhut: 13:00

Maybe I should be doing that too. Maybe that's a good thing for me to do. So there are many other ways that behavioral science, offers to attract attention, but I think those are 3 of the best ones and 3 relatively easy ones for a solopreneur to apply whether they're doing marketing communications or whether they're even having a face to face sales conversation.

Joe Rando: 13:18

What about even things like your website, like your hero in your website? You know, I don't see a lot of them saying you. Usually, maybe if it's good, it's usually like, we, who we help and how we do it kind of thing gets conveyed in the hero, but I've never seen that. Does that make sense or is that misapplying the theory?

Nancy Harhut: 13:40

So, you know, it can go either way. Like, I'm not saying

Nancy Harhut: 13:42

we can never use the word we. I'm not saying we can never use the company name. obviously we want to, and sometimes, you know, the headline on a website when you're quickly, you know, scrolling, you just might wanna, say, well, who are these people? We do this, you know, and it's like if you can quickly and clearly and succinctly describe what it is you do, that's great, but then as you begin to build on that, it should really be through the lens of the person, you know, what they're looking for and how it's gonna benefit them. And if you find a way to very quickly and clearly and succinctly communicate your value proposition without using the word we, you know, by by using the word you, so much better.

Nancy Harhut: 14:17

You know, maybe you jump on someone's website and it says you're looking for a way to stand out. We can help you do that because we, you know, whatever we do. But but, yeah, I would just say, you know, every time you use the word we, there should be one we for every 6 or 7 you's.

Joe Rando: 14:35

I think we got an AB test in the making here, Carly. We're gonna AB test our new homepage.

Carly Ries: 14:40

We always have an AB test for making dough. Well, so now I mean, you have so many little nuggets of wisdom in your book. Like, that was just giving the surface and it's such a great, I feel like preview into what people can see if they buy your book. But my question, I guess, is let's say somebody is writing email, and in their subject line, they're like, you should buy this free ebook that I'm just ripping here,

Joe Rando: 15:06

Well that would get my attention because I'm surprised they have to buy something that's free.

Carly Ries: 15:09

Yeah. Surprise. We should buy this. It's free.

Nancy Harhut: 15:12

I wasn't gonna go there, Joe, but okay. But, you know, well, you you should get this free ebook. Right? For example, that's really good.

Carly Ries: 15:19

This free ebook, and then we'll do a surprise emoji to just throw that in there. Let's say they're trying the different tactics. Nothing is working. What what people are trying to apply behavioral science to their marketing, take a page out of your book. When when things go wrong, what are they typically doing wrong?

Carly Ries: 15:35

If it's not working for them, where do you see people failing, and how can they correct it?

Nancy Harhut: 15:39

Sure. So well, you know, one place I see people failing is they try the one thing. They're okay. Oh, free works and emojis work. Great.

Nancy Harhut: 15:46

You know? You should get this free ebook. And then not as many people respond and you're like, okay. Behavioral science doesn't work. Nancy doesn't know what she was talking about or it doesn't work for me or it doesn't work for you know, my product or my target.

Nancy Harhut: 15:57

And the truth of the matter is none of these payroll science tactics are foolproof. We have yet to get to the point as marketers where we can wave a magic wand and make everyone do what we want them to do. It would be wonderful if we could do that. Right? But we're never gonna get there and nor should we want to.

Nancy Harhut: 16:12

We don't wanna make everyone do what we want them to do. We wanna help people, find us who can really benefit from our products and services. Right? So anything that we're doing is gonna increase the likelihood that people will respond, increase the likelihood that people will pay attention and respond. So if the first thing that we test doesn't work, let's test something else.

Nancy Harhut: 16:31

Right? So one of the mistakes I see is people try one thing, it doesn't work, it doesn't work as well as they hope, and they're like, okay, this isn't for me. And, you know, my advice to them is is go back in, like, alright. You're offering this free ebook, and you said, you should get this free ebook with a smiley emoji, and it didn't work. Well, you know, let's think about maybe why it didn't work or let's actually step back, and think about why would somebody wanna get the ebook?

Nancy Harhut: 16:54

What problem is it solving? What's it gonna help them do? You know, what's the what's the reason, you know, that they should get it, what are they gonna gain from it and test a few different subject lines. Maybe there's one about social proof, you know, you know, everybody in coaching is getting this ebook, get yours now too, you know, it's like, oh, I already read some social proof or, you know, the the number one ebook for coaches, download it for free. It's like, oh, there's some authority principle there, it's the number one book, you know, or maybe it's providing the reason why. you know, we know that people are more likely to do what we ask them to do if we give them a reason why, so maybe we wanna say, you know, free ebook because everyone needs more clients. Right? You know, so for you know, so we wanna, like, think about, alright, what is it we want people to do? Why might they not do it? And then let's think about potential ways to overcome that, and let's identify 2 or 3 or 4, and then we wanna test them and see which one works best.

Nancy Harhut: 17:49

And then the second thing that I think, people sometimes do wrong when it comes to applying behavioral science to marketing is they misapply the tactics. So we talked a little bit earlier about social proof, right, when, when we're uncertain about what to do, we look around, we see what other people are doing and we follow their lead, and this is particularly true if it's people like us. Right? We feel like, well, if they're all doing it, it's probably a safe choice, it's probably, you know, a a move that I can make and I'm not gonna get disappointed. In fact, if I don't follow them, I might actually feel that I'm missing out on something.

Nancy Harhut: 18:20

So social proof, you know, it's a very strong motivator, but it can be misapplied. For example, say you're selling life insurance, and so you say to someone, too many people wait until they're 50 years old to buy life insurance. I'm talking to you now while you're younger because it's a good idea for you to get it. Well, all the person hears is a lot of people wait until they're 50. They're like, great.

Nancy Harhut: 18:44

I'm gonna wait until I'm 50. You know, that's social proof. Right? But it's completely undoing what the person who's selling the insurance is trying to do. You know, the person selling the insurance is trying to get you to buy it earlier, but by saying lots of people wait until they're 50,

Nancy Harhut: 18:59

The message to the person hearing it is I'll wait until I'm 50. It's almost like, a social proof backfire. So, you know, one thing is, one mistake is they test one thing and they're like, okay, it doesn't work so they need to really test more. And the other mistake is, you know, they they take the principle and they misapply it. They think they're doing the right thing, but, you know, there's like this law of unintended consequences.

Nancy Harhut: 19:20

It's like, you know, you gave a reason that actually reinforced the decision to not act as opposed to encourage people to act. So, those are, I think, 2 of the big big mistakes that I see as people start to look to apply behavioral science to their marketing and sales messages.

Carly Ries: 19:35

Absolutely. And it's funny because I think another thing, people need to understand is that, like people's behavior can change, and you need to constantly be testing. Your audience may be evolving, your product may be evolving. Something that's always so funny to me is like, I had stopped using emojis and subject lines. And then I found out 6 months later, no, those are working really well and and all these things.

Carly Ries: 19:58

They just kinda go back and forth, ebbs and flows. So I'm curious in your ongoing research, what has been the most surprising thing you've discovered that may be counterintuitive to what you originally thought?

Nancy Harhut: 20:08

Sure. You actually make a very good point too about things kind of, you know, ebbing and flowing. Some things, you know, working really well and then it may be not so much and so it's it's important to test and to stay on top of things and to think about what works for a particular market segment or a particular, you know, product. So, you know, you could have one thing that works really well for one group of of people and another thing that works really well for this other group of people.

Nancy Harhut: 20:31

You could be selling the same product to both groups, but, you know, one group is more, you know, interested in promotions, you know, like saving money, gaining things and someone else might be more interested in avoiding loss and, you know, not running, you know, not running into problems. So you gotta find what's gonna work for the individual, individual market. And then when it comes to, what surprised me, so there were definitely some counterintuitive tactics in behavioral science, you know, one of them is the idea of loss aversion. Right? People are more motivated to avoid the pain of loss than they are to achieve the pleasure of gain, But in marketing, we're all about the gains, the benefits, the advantages, and so it's, you know, can be a little counterintuitive to instead focus on what you might lose as opposed to what you might gain, but I think the thing that surprised me the most when I was doing the research for the book is there's a principle called autonomy and it's this idea that humans have this very deep seated desire to exercise some control over themselves and their environments and, there was a researcher, Ellen Langer, I think it was, along with, with a partner, a research partner, and they went into an assisted living facility. And they ran this experiment so some people were given a choice of which movie they wanted to watch and, what plant they wanted to grow in the room, and other people were simply shown a movie, and there was a plant put in the room and somebody would come in and and care for the plant, you know, as needed. And, you know, very small difference. Right? Like, getting people to choose the movie they want and getting people to, you know, choose their plant and take care of it versus having someone, you know, provide a movie for them and having someone provide the plant.

Nancy Harhut: 22:08

Well, it turned out that when researchers came back, I think it was like a year later, there were twice as many deaths in the group where people didn't have choice and they started to delve into that data and they're like, wow. You know, all things being equal, when you start to control for somebody's age and somebody's health, it really seemed that a big player in some people passing away sooner was they just didn't have any autonomy. They just didn't have any sense of purpose, sense of self, sense of control. So that, I mean, that is really amazing because, you know, I was writing and researching with an eye to marketing and and sales and persuading people within a commercial context, but it was like, wow.

Nancy Harhut: 22:52

You know, twice as many people had died when the researchers came back in the group that didn't have the autonomy. So it's really interesting, you know, I don't wanna dwell on on that, so I'm gonna pull us up out of autonomy and say from a marketing perspective, what it means is we wanna remind people, our customers, our prospects, that they have a choice, that they're the ones in control, that we're not forcing them into doing something. And in fact, if we can give them a couple of choices, I mean, say I'm a consultant and somebody asked me for a proposal, I'm better off giving people 2 versions of the proposal or 3 even versions of the proposal than just 1 because you put one thing down in front of someone and and the question is, alright, do I or do I not want it? You put 2 or 3 and it's like, oh, which of these do I want? And it's almost a foregone conclusion.

Nancy Harhut: 23:34

They're gonna choose one of them and they're gonna feel good because they're the ones in charge. They're the ones who are making the choice. And then an add on to this is, it's also very counterintuitive, but there's something called the BYAF technique. BYAF stands for but you are free, and what behavioral scientists have found is you can tell someone what you want them to do, you can ask them to do it, but then if you follow the request with a phrase like, but you're free to choose or the choice is yours or it's up to you or it's your call, on average, you double the likelihood that people do what you're asking them to do, and it's because you're bringing to the forefront of their mind that they're the ones in charge, they're consciously making the decision, they're not being forced into something. So I found that fascinating and it was actually pretty surprising.

Nancy Harhut: 24:21

You would say, like, why would you sell your heart out and just when you're asking someone to do something, remind them but you don't really have to. Like, that sounds so counterintuitive and yet it can actually be the saying that does get people to do what you're asking them to do. Pretty interesting stuff.

Carly Ries: 24:37

It is so funny. Literally, this morning, I was talking to my daughter about the clothes she wanted to wear today, and I was really pushing for this. It's hot here, and she wanted to wear a sweater and I was pushing for her to wear shorts and t shirt. And I was like, you know what? You do you.

Carly Ries: 24:52

I was like, you do you. You pick it. And then she went and picked what I wanted her to wear because I was like, you do you, honey. So it just happened an hour ago. I love it.

Nancy Harhut: 25:03

I love it.

Carly Ries: 25:04

But it's so wild the way the the brain works and, gosh, just fascinating. Sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off, but that just happened.

Nancy Harhut: 25:14

it's funny, and it is fascinating because I think, if you said to your daughter, you know, well, why did you decide to put on the shorts and t shirt? Was it because I said you do you? you know, she would more than likely say, no, you know, I decided that it was kinda hot or I wanted to wear that, you know. She wouldn't say, well, it was because you elevated the autonomy principle and you made me feel like... but it's true.

Joe Rando: 25:39

I would hope not

Carly Ries: 25:40

If she did say that, we would have breaking news.

Nancy Harhut: 25:43

Yeah. That's where really she'd be on the show and not me. But, you know, my point is a lot of times, we're making these decisions subconsciously, and if you then turn around and you ask somebody, well, why did you buy that or why didn't you buy that or why did you like this or why don't you like this, they'll give you the reason they think is true.

Nancy Harhut: 26:02

They'll point to a very sensible explanation. But what very often we're not aware of is there other factors at play that that can influence our decisions, like the idea of having a choice, like the idea of social proof, you know, like the idea of the authority principle. You know, we'll we'll think we're buying for really good rational reasons, and that certainly is part of it, but there's this other factor at play that can influence those decisions, and and very often that factor is something that we're not consciously aware of, but for marketers to get out ahead of that, for entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, you know, anyone who's trying to make a sale, for us to be aware of how people make decisions, and I emphasize make because very often we don't consciously make them, we default to them, when when we're in a position to have that knowledge and to use it in our favor, it's a win win. It helps us help our customers and prospects, it helps us make sure our messages land, and, helps people make a decision sooner that will ultimately benefit them. Because when you think about it, you've got a product, your competitors have a product, there's a market out there, your competitor's gonna get some of those people, you're gonna get some of those people.

Nancy Harhut: 27:06

Wouldn't you rather get more of them? How are you gonna get more of them? By understanding, you know, how the brain works, how people make decisions, the decision making shortcuts that they rely on. And when you're armed with that information, it just makes you more effective at at doing what you're doing.

Carly Ries: 27:19

Nancy, I feel like you'd be a hard person to argue with. But if I were to get an argument with you, I would just wave the white flag immediately because I'm like, she's gonna use some tactic that's just gonna bring me down. I just feel like your job is so fascinating, and I'm thinking about our audience and I mean, you've just listed a few of your many principles that you mentioned, in your book, and I feel like they're like, gosh, I wanna dive into all of this, but I have such limited time. I have to focus on my operations. I have to focus on just running that one person business.

Carly Ries: 27:48

I don't know if it's fair for you to choose one principle that you would focus on if you could pick 1 because maybe they're like your babies, but if you had to pick one that you think a solopreneur should really dive into if they have limited time, could you?

Nancy Harhut: 28:03

It is a tough question, and a lot of times you know, we choose behavioral science principles based on the problem that we're trying to solve or the challenge that we have, but if if you're gonna force me to, I would say it would be the idea of cognitive fluency. Cognitive fluency is a mouthful of a phrase, but what it really means is people prefer things that are easier to think about and easier to understand. Not only do they prefer them, but they find them, more truthful and more accurate, and as a result, they are more likely to believe them, more likely to be persuaded by them, more likely to feel comfortable making a decision about them. So how do what does this boil up to? What it means is regardless of the product or service we're selling, we have to be very clear about our message.

Nancy Harhut: 28:47

You know, we don't wanna use vernacular. We don't wanna use jargon. We don't wanna use acronyms. We don't wanna obfuscate, if you will, our message. Right?

Nancy Harhut: 28:54

So often it's like, you know, we have the solution that will help you optimize your, customer behavior, but what do you do? You know, like, what does that mean? What is the solution and and what do you mean by optimize customer behavior? Like, what do you oh, you have a product that will help me, get more people to open my email. Oh, okay.

Nancy Harhut: 29:12

Now I understand that. Right? So the idea of being clear, of using concrete terms, of not falling into this kind of, you know, vague language that so often we use, I think that's arguably one of the most important things that any any entrepreneur, solopreneur, big big company marketer, any of us can, you know, can do. We just wanna be clear about what we're what we're offering. We wanna use concrete terms.

Nancy Harhut: 29:36

We wanna use, you know, terms that allow people to create a mental image, so we can see it. It's like, oh, okay. I can see somebody opening my email. I can't see somebody acting with optimized behavior. I don't know what that means, you know.

Nancy Harhut: 29:49

So clear, crisp communication. The language that we use needs to, you know, succinctly and easily communicate so that, you know, people aren't left scratching their head because we think, oh, well, you know what? In page 3, we tell them even more on our website. They're not gonna get to page 3 on our website, you know, that we need to be really crystal clear. So I think cognitive fluency, and I smile when I say that because, the behavioral scientist could have come up with a better phrase than cognitive fluency because that leaves you scratching your head.

Nancy Harhut: 30:15

What does that mean?

Nancy Harhut: 30:16

they should call it like the easy to understand principle, but that's basically what it is. Make sure that your sales message, your marketing message, you know, the message on your website, in your email, your your social ads, whatever, make sure it's clear. Make sure people know what you're talking about.

Carly Ries: 30:31

I'm so glad you mentioned that

Carly Ries: 30:31

because it can be so easy to fall into jargon. I know at the beginning of this interview, I said CTR. And for our audience of solopreneurs, they're not marketers. They may not know that CTR is click through rate. Like, it just it rolls off the tongue so easily, and so I'm so glad you pointed that out, and it's often helpful to have somebody that's not in your line of work to review it before it goes live to make sure you're speaking to your actual audience and not to somebody that speaks sugar lingo.

Carly Ries: 30:58

Oh, you're absolutely right.

Nancy Harhut: 30:59

the behavioral scientists call it, the curse of knowledge. Like, we know what we know, and so we assume that other people know it. I mean, why wouldn't you know what CTR is? Come on. Of course. we use it so often, we don't even think that it's not as common as the word apple or coffee mug, you know, we just use it all the time. But you're right, when someone from outside the industry looks at it, they might, I don't know I don't know what you're talking about. So, yeah, avoiding that jargon and, you know, and then having, you know, just taking a step back or having someone come in and take a look at what you're putting out there can really service you, you know, really kind of benefit your business because if people don't really know what you offer, are they gonna use you? Probably not.

Nancy Harhut: 31:36

Are they gonna take the time to find out? Probably not. You know, there are a lot of competitors out there. People are just gonna move on to the next place until they find something that immediately satisfies what they're looking for.

Carly Ries: 31:46

Yeah. I mean, I'm the fractional CMO with LifeStarr is my title. And, a friend of mine is a dermatologist, and she was like, what's your job title? And I was like, I'm a fractional CMO.

Carly Ries: 31:58

She was like, that doesn't make any sense for your line of work. And she thought I meant chief medical officer because she's a doctor. And I was I didn't even know that was a phrase in the medical world. So just really making sure your audience knows what you mean. I can't stress that enough.

Carly Ries: 32:14

I'm so happy you brought that up because I think that is such a big deal. Well, so I love my job, and I'm not just saying that because Joe's here. But I'm also very jealous that you get to dive into this kind of stuff day in and day out. And I'm curious for people, they can't necessarily dedicate all their time to behavioral science, but I want to implement it into their business. Aside from testing, aside from reading your book, which I know I've said that a 1000000 times in this, I just am such a fan that I think everybody should read it.

Carly Ries: 32:46

What other recommendations would you have for aspiring solopreneurs wanting to implement this, the resources? Just how do they make it a part of their marketing plan?

Nancy Harhut: 32:56

Sure. So, you know, I myself have a small agency. So I'm not quite a solopreneur but there's very few of us. So I kind of go through some of that same, you know, there's so much I need to know and so little time to learn it. And, so one of the things I like are podcasts because I can multitask.

Nancy Harhut: 33:12

I can go out for a run and I can, you know, listen to a podcast. So I'm kind of killing 2 birds with 1 stone. So 2 podcasts that I really recommend are, Melina Palmer. She a runs podcast called The Brainy Business, and, Roger Dooley who runs Brainfluence. And I love to listen to them.

Nancy Harhut: 33:30

There are others, you know, I'm just mentioning 2 right now. There are others that are out there that are really good, but I really like both of them because, they allow me to stay current and, they have a marketing and sales bent to their, you know, to their podcast and they just talk about not only what's new but how to apply it in a very practical easy to understand way. So I would recommend those 2 podcasts, they're great ways to, you know, to stay on top of things when people are, you know, time pressed. And then there are there are a couple of, e newsletters that I like as well, and I know finding time to read can be difficult, but these are pretty short, they're well written, and you can kind of dive in and out and grab what you need. One of them is called Habit Weekly, and the other one is called Inside BE, BE for behavioral economics, but it's Inside BE and and Habit Weekly. I would definitely recommend those, it's, you know, for a relatively small investment of time, you can really plug into what's going on in the world of of behavioral science and social science and and how to use that in in, your business.

Carly Ries: 34:27

Perfect. Well, those will all be in the show notes. You have plugged other people. Now it's time to plug yourself. But let's talk about your book, where they can find it, but also where can they learn more about you.

Nancy Harhut: 34:39

Sure. So the book is, Using Behavioral Science in Marketing, Drive Customer Action and Loyalty by Prompting Instinctive Responses. And, that's kind of the gist of it right there. It's like you wanna just prompt these hardwired automatic instinctive responses, because that's what's gonna get people to engage with you and, do business with you. And it's available, at cogentpage, which is the publisher on their website, it's available on Amazon, it's really available, you know, any place that you can buy a good book, the independent bookstores, Target, Barnes and Noble, so, so definitely check it out.

Nancy Harhut: 35:14

I would love to hear from any of your audience that picks up a copy, and if anyone has any questions or wants to follow-up with me, I'd be happy to entertain that. And then, I am the cofounder of HBT Marketing. HBT stands for Human Behavior Triggers, and what we do is we create marketing campaigns, email campaigns, direct mail campaigns, landing pages, social, ads that, blend behavioral science and marketing best practices in order to increase the likelihood that people do what, our clients want them to do. And so if you go to hptmktg.com, HBT marketing, but we've abbreviated marketing, that's our website and there's a lot of, you know, links to articles and podcast interviews and webinars on the site. So if anyone wants to find out more about me, about our company, or more broadly speaking about how to apply behavioral science in marketing, check that out because there's a lot of good resources there.

Carly Ries: 36:10

Perfect, Again all of those will be in the show notes. Well, Nancy, we ask all of our guests this question, so I wanna end the show with this. What is your favorite quote about success?

Nancy Harhut: 36:19

Wow. So I am so not a sports person and if I were a sports person, I wouldn't even be a hockey person. But I think it's a Wayne Gretzky quote, you miss a 100% of the shots you don't take, and I feel like that's a pretty good quote to think about when you're thinking about success. You know?

Nancy Harhut: 36:39

You're not always gonna succeed, but if you're afraid to try, you're never gonna succeed. Right? So, I like that one.

Carly Ries: 36:45

Good job, Wayne. one of my favorites. Well, Nancy, you know we are so giddy about this, and, I know our audience is gonna benefit so much from this episode, and we just so appreciate your time for coming on the show today.

Nancy Harhut: 37:00

Thank you guys so much. Carly and Joe, it's been my absolute pleasure. I really enjoyed speaking with you. So thank you again.

Carly Ries: 37:07

Wonderful. And listeners, we love, love, love doing this for all of you. And so in return, we would love a 5 star review, a subscribe, a like, you know what to do. Please do it. Otherwise, we will see you next time on The Aspiring Solopreneur.

Carly Ries: 37:22

You may be going solo in business, but that doesn't mean you're alone. In fact, millions of people are in your shoes, running a one person business and figuring it out as they go. So why not connect with them and learn from each other's successes and failures? At LifeStarr, we're creating a one person business community where you can go to meet and get advice from other solopreneurs. Be sure to join in on the conversations at community.lifestarr.com.